I just had to throw this out there, in hopes of making some of you guys re-evaluate this function. I believe I look at skimming with the same discontent that hardcore players look at helper users (see Cgaz thread). It's lame, it makes runs look ugly (especially to the untrained eye) and it just makes the game become about who can slam into the wall at the perfect spot (haha, that last one was perhaps a bit exaggerated, but a reasonable counterattack for the Cgaz haters :p). I can totally see how skimming is vital in a game as clunky and stale as Defrag, where you have practically 0 options for altering your placement, it opens up many new routes for you there. However in Warsow you have tons of possibilities when it comes to slightly altering your placement to get that perfect double-jump (or whatever it is you need to place yourself for). Walljumping and dashing was all you needed in Warsow for the majority to be against implementing skimming there (there just wasn't any need for it, and it took very much away from the precision required, so it just didn't make sense). In RIK there's walljumping, halfjumps and even sliding(!), that's going to mean even MORE flexibility than in Warsow. I strongly believe skimming was originally added to compensate for clunkyness (at the cost of precision and looks of a run), which this game does not suffer from. Thoughts?
I always found skimming to be a fun aspect of defrag. I never played warsow and I'm fairly new to the walljumping and crouchsliding so I don't really know how much this will affect routes.
Skimming is cool.
Skimming ftw, if anything it just makes the runs look smoother.
You sneaky bastard, trying to divert attention from the whole cgaz issue by denigrating such a a wonderful feature! :pFirst off, it's not like you have to skim every corner to get a good time. And sometimes you wouldn't have to at all, so it's not like it's something you absolutely must do in every case. That being said, I have previously tried without "skimming" enabled at all, it just feels bad, hit the corner even a tiny bit and byebye speed. One could consider increasing or decreasing the "skim period" though, atm it's 0.2 seconds after every jump (standard q3).That being said, skimming actually makes sense, skimming is realistic! I could draw up something but I'm awful at it. Just imagine that you hit a wall or something with ~half your body, you can "twist" around it a bit and continue on a little "sideways" with your torso for a bit. That's how I think of skimming, and as long as it's not something you're "forced" to do in order to gain speed constantly, it's a good thing in my opinion.. :)
Good to see that someone coming with actual arguments, instead of just stating their opinion! :p I do see what you mean, and I can understand how that's been so ingrained into most defraggers minds by now that it feels like second nature to them (thus Lithz saying it makes the run look smother). But it honestly doesn't look good to someone that doesn't fully understand the principles behind it. You hit edges/walls, the movement is halted for a bit just to be jerked back up again. (That also kills the "realism"-feel to it imo, if there is one :D)And yes, it will be beneficial to skim most corners in this game, since you can slide right up until you hit the wall just to jump right when yuo hit it, you can make optimal skimming cuts at every corner.Avoiding slamming into walls without sacrificing your route is going to be possible with all these movement possibilities, so why not force people to actually avoid them? (Precision ftw!)
Yes, precision ftw. The precision required to skim a corner! :twisted: But really though, I still stand by what I said about the realism part, could make it seem more realistic by moving the view or something but that would be disturbing.. Though I'd be open to making it HARDER, but removing it all together would be bad imo. You should also know, that walljumps in RIK aren't like the walljumps in warsow, you can't use them to fix up your route and such.. :) Not in the warsow fashion at least.
Yes, precision ftw. The precision required to skim a corner! :twisted: But really though, I still stand by what I said about the realism part, could make it seem more realistic by moving the view or something but that would be disturbing.. Though I'd be open to making it HARDER, but removing it all together would be bad imo. You should also know, that walljumps in RIK aren't like the walljumps in warsow, you can't use them to fix up your route and such.. :) Not in the warsow fashion at least.by Dinius
Allright, I guess I should hold off til I've actually tried RIK before I make up my mind about this, then! :)
You should also know, that walljumps in RIK aren't like the walljumps in warsow, you can't use them to fix up your route and such.. :) Not in the warsow fashion at least.by Dinius
This part got me confused, what do you mean by "fixing up your route"? Could you elaborate a little?
Skimming is integral to Q3/CPM gameplay. It's integral to fast-paced strafing, run maps, and precise movement. It also has drawbacks.
Best example video I found without looking too much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkcoKPOsKQ Can explain \ draw up something if needed but that video at least shows some basics or so..
This part got me confused, what do you mean by "fixing up your route"? Could you elaborate a little?
by inept
There are more rules about when you can and cannot walljump in RIK, which mean you can't simply jump off a wall head-on and keep all your speed while doing a 180 degree turn, or use it purely reflexively - it has to be planned and incorporated into your route earlier on.
The correct term for this is Clipping, and it is a vital aspect in Q3 Defrag. In my personal opinion, it is a needed feature. It feels natural and makes me happy every time I corner clip in vq3. In a factual sense, it is needed to promote fluid transitions around corners. Without this feature you would just bounce of a corner and your run is ruined, as said by Dinius. The whole point of a game like this is to finish as fast as possible. With that being said, the route you take to achieve a fast time requires you to take the shortest path possible, so not being able to clip means you have to take more time to go around corners(Depending on the map that is). Another point is the map itself. Lets say the map maker wants to add tight corners through the entire course. It would not be fun when you bounce off these corners because you can't physically go around them at a high velocity without hitting the wall or having to slow down considerably to do so. The main point is fun. Clipping corners is fun. Bouncing off of them is not. For the sake of compromise you could allow clipping in vq3 physics and not allow clipping in cpm or significantly reduce it. All in all, Imma be pissed if I can't clip corners.
Oh please, "correct term" my ass :DFirst of all, we can call it whatever we'd want tbh :mrgreen:Secondly, "corner clipping" is a stupid name, clipping in the q3 world would also refer to actually placing clips to e.g. prevent unwanted shortcuts etc. See also http://q3df.org/wiki?p=3 for example.. Lastly, to "skim" is defined as: "go or move quickly and lightly over or on a surface or through the air." Hence, the correct term is _not_ clipping or corner clipping :)
But yeah, skimming will be included\allowed\enabled\whatever :)
:DIt doesn't "clip through" it though. What happens is that after leaving the ground, you have 250 milliseconds where nothing will stop you, so instead of getting stopped by the wall like you'd normally do, you retain your velocity and slide along it for the remainder of those milliseconds. And so, if you hit it correctly you'll glide along the wall for long enough to get past it. This is also why you can "skim" "more" at higher speeds, because then you'll move further in those 250 milliseconds than at lower speeds.Besides, e.g. calling it corner cutting makes more sense than calling it corner clipping, seeing as "clip(s)" are something else entirely.. :PAnyways... :mrgreen:
Not trying to argue here, just confused. I know you guys know the code, and I don't. Its just weird to me. And I like it.
Hehe yeah I know, I just felt like "elaborating" :P
The correct term for this is ClippingNo..by NujaK
In a factual sense, it is needed to promote fluid transitions around cornersNot sure you have a real grasp on what factual means.. It isn't "needed", it's something you personally prefer.by NujaK
The whole point of a game like this is to finish as fast as possible. With that being said, the route you take to achieve a fast time requires you to take the shortest path possible, so not being able to clip means you have to take more time to go around corners(Depending on the map that is)Uhm, yea? The point is to take the engine you're given and reach the finish as fast as possible. How is this an argument for including skimming tho? You could just as well have been arguing for allowing noclip during runs with this statement tbh.by NujaK
Another point is the map itself. Lets say the map maker wants to add tight corners through the entire course. It would not be fun when you bounce off these corners because you can’t physically go around them at a high velocity without hitting the wall or having to slow down considerably to do soYou're arguing as if the mapper is unaware of which engine he's mapping for.. If the mapper wants you to slow down, he'll just make corners even tigher with skimming.. this is a moot point.by NujaK
The main point is fun. Clipping corners is fun.Now here's a real argument, and one that I can't poke any holes in. My view on skimming most likely comes from lack of experience playing with it. I'm coming at this with an outsiders perspective, and that is that it's just ugly-looking (which it is to the untrained eye, no question). But yea, why let that stand in the way of people having fun.---by NujaK
Rarely refered to as “corner clipping”.Rarely, because it's an incorrect term.by NujaK
It’s a common misconception that the player is going through the corner of the wall.by NujaK
I like to call it that because your model’s hitbox clips through the corner of the wall or whatever.Kudos on including such a contradictory statement in one and the same post.---by NujaK
you could allow clipping in vq3 physics and not allow clipping in cpmWill RIK have vq3 movement?by NujaK
I was so relieved that I wasn't quoted even once :mrgreen::mrgreen::p Haven't really thought about the ugly part, looks perfectly fine, even kind of cool or so, when you're "used" to it :) Its got no-aircontrol movement, which will be included etc. I don't think I'll do full-on "vq3" style. Meaning you can still do ~everything else, just without aircontrol.
:mrgreen:Yea, as I said, lack of experiece here. To me it would make a whole lot more sense if it wasn't connected to the moment of jumping, but rather just 250 ms (or lower) after you hit the wall, you keep speed, always. Aligns better with your "turning your body" argument, too, imo :3I see, but will it have a seperate toplist, defrag style? :/
But then you could easily skim pretty much everything without any skill/timing/precision involved, which would be lame. And nah, you'll see :p
But then you could easily skim pretty much everything without any skill/timing/precision involved, which would be lame. And nah, you'll see :pby Dinius
I'm not saying it would be better, I'm just saying it would make more sense :D
Yes, sir! :) This is what corner clipping is:![Image]()
+1 Actually, -1000 for not using rikradiant :(
No..[quote author="NujaK"]Kudos on including such a contradictory statement in one and the same post.Yeah I realized that shortly after I posted it, but whatever 'skimmin' is possible in RIK and that was one of my big concerns. I even read that before I posted, Lol.by QaleQ
Is that so you can see through it, but cannot pass through it?
That is literally what clipping is. It's part of the reason skimming became the proper term. It's a Radiant thing.
Yep, clips are used to block the player from accessing certain places. Though it may be something not so commonly used in tricking maps, we still shouldn't forget what clipping actually is. I hope for every player to at least try mapping in RIK, and if that happens, a term confusion such as this could bring some future problems.
There is a way to structure your maps to block skimming. Though I haven't tried it much in RIK yet, and it's depending a lot on player speed when hitting a corner, but I'm fairly sure it should be possible anyway.![Image]()
Green corners block skimming, as you skim through the first brush but collide on the second one. If you have lots of speed though, you skim through the second brush as well. Basically a mapper can choose to map for skimming or not, however the green way is considered usually the better way for proper t-junction.
Green corners block skimming, as you skim through the first brush but collide on the second one. If you have lots of speed though, you skim through the second brush as well. Basically a mapper can choose to map for skimming or not, however the green way is considered usually the better way for proper t-junction. Aye, however that's exactly something that wouldn't be allowed, until it's fixed in the engine :PSee my mapping 101, you bastard :P e: and generally it doens't really "block" it as such in those particular cases, it just runs the risk of being a bit buggeh.
I'm too experienced to read mapping 101's!