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Strafe/angle helper aka 'CGAZ HUD'

by Dinius • December 02, 2014
Will refer to it as a "strafe helper" from now on.
Just posting this for now, in case someone has some ideas for other stuff.
Current thinking:
No strafe helper at all. Strafe helper considered to be like a wallhack for fragging, doesn't do the aiming for you, but it's sure nice to have.
But maybe a simple one for tutorials would be nice, but disabled and disallowed for run maps.
Alternatives:
    • Speed above\under or in crosshair center
    • Color changing, either of the text or the actual crosshair, when you're gaining\losing speed.
    • A "rotator" around the crosshair, rotates faster the more quickly you're gaining speed etc.. See image below 
Image
And so forth, just posting this to get it "out there" :)
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huPo • December 02, 2014
I support the original idea, as in nothing at all if you're playing online. Go offline for learning.
Theodorus • December 02, 2014
I support the original idea, as in nothing at all if you're playing online. Go offline for learning.
by huPo

 sounds good

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QaleQ • December 03, 2014
How about having something along the lines of ranked/unranked servers with seperate toplists, where unranked would let you use various helpers, whereas ranked wouldn't. I believe this approach could make more people convert RIK, since so many players are helper-dependent players these days. If all those people would have to play offline, theres a risk they'd just go back to whatever game the played before.
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Dinius • December 03, 2014
I think it would make more sense to enable them to use the helpers on any servers, just that their times wouldn't be sent to the rankings list. It would still be set on the server right then so others could see it, but would be marked that it was set using "helpers". This way they could even practice with the helper and then set an actual time without later on.. 
Don't like the idea of having separate ranking systems, especially not for something as "trivial" as this.
I know there's (quite) a few people who are used to "helpers". And I'm not at all against the "alternative" helpers listed above, or possibly others, those would be allowed regardless. I'm just against having something that actually shows you the exact angle, I don't see how that's different to e.g. a wallhack.
But yes, enabling it freely would more easily attract a few of the existing jumpers, hence the reason for this topic. But I don't think splitting it up at rankings is a good solution either. The people I know at least wouldn't find it very interesting to be sorted into some separate helper-only list which wouldn't "really" matter, just be a secondary thing to the actual "real" rankings list.
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QaleQ • December 03, 2014
I think it would make more sense to enable them to use the helpers on any servers, just that their times wouldn't be sent to the rankings list. It would still be set on the server right then so others could see it, but would be marked that it was set using "helpers". This way they could even practice with the helper and then set an actual time without later on.. 
Don't like the idea of having separate ranking systems, especially not for something as "trivial" as this.
I know there's (quite) a few people who are used to "helpers". And I'm not at all against the "alternative" helpers listed above, or possibly others, those would be allowed regardless. I'm just against having something that actually shows you the exact angle, I don't see how that's different to e.g. a wallhack.
But yes, enabling it freely would more easily attract a few of the existing jumpers, hence the reason for this topic. But I don't think splitting it up at rankings is a good solution either. The people I know at least wouldn't find it very interesting to be sorted into some separate helper-only list which wouldn't "really" matter, just be a secondary thing to the actual "real" rankings list.
by Dinius

 

Yes, if using helpers during a run would simply flag that run, that would be alot better, for sure. However, I really do think those assisted runs need to be stored somehow, preferably in a seperate toplist.
I believe many players would only play with helpers, if the option was there, and they wouldn't enjoy it for long if they couldn't re-play a map and see if they'd improved since the last time they played it. Having a toplist would also help us avoid people making false claims about what times have they've achieved.
Practically every Warsow racer use helpers. I wouldn't qualify that as being comparable to wallhacking, since wallhacking is something solely used for cheating, effectively implying you get an unfair upper hand over the people you compete against. That isn't the case if everyone is given the option, and you only compete against the people with the same setting as youself.
I only suggested helper-runs be "unranked" because I've gotten the feeling a big chunk of the combined race-communities frown upon using helpers, which is understandably frustrating if you, as a non-helper user share a toplist with the helper user. Especially if there's no way to tell who uses it and who doesn't.
So, just two seperate toplists, each with their own individual ranking, is what I guess I'd like to see. Second choice being the anti-helper approach, having no option for helpers at all.
Just to clarify, I use the word "helpers" to describe displaying exact point to aim at/speed to move mouse, here, not the "hinting" helpers

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Dinius • December 03, 2014
Yeah I think most, about ~80% or so, roughly, would use the helper(s) if they're available. 
And yes, the typical wallhack situation gives the player who uses it an unfair advantage over the ones who doesn't, and there's usually very few comparably who would use one at a given time.
This is of course not the exact same situation, it's just a comparison as an example, but I feel like the helper type of things is very comparable to giving everyone a 'wallhack'. It gives an advantage (sometimes small, but it's still there) to those who use it (which would be almost everyone) and it leaves the ones who doesn't at a disadvantage.
But I really don't like the idea of separating the times, anything else than that. It would only result in a split racing community. I'd much sooner enable the helpers freely, and possibly just flag the time in the shared ranking system as being set using helper.
That being said, aside from the fact that existing jumpers are often used to it, I don't really see any valid arguments as to why they should be there in the first place.. It makes the whole competition into a game of "hit the line on your screen". 
And again, I'm not trying to be too difficult or "final" here, I'm just arguing my side of it :)
I see valid arguments as to why they would be there for learning, but not for competing..
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Dinius • December 03, 2014
A thought though, a separate ranking system for.. like "handicap" could be more relevant. Where you could use helpers and you could adjust your base speed to some extent.. Not really tempting but could be a possibility with something along those lines.. A time would then be saved with the handicap, e.g. +50 base speed or something like that... Again, not an actual thing I think would be great just like that, only an alternative.. Can see how it would be easier to attract new players if you could play in some "mode" where things were actually easy..
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QaleQ • December 03, 2014

Mixing helper runs with non-helper runs will still be discouraging for non-helper guys i believe. Though i guess you could use some variation of the toplist command to only display one, the other or both together.

I absolutely understand your way of looking at this whole thing, but I do have to disagree about "It makes the whole competition into a game of “hit the line on your screen”."
In my opinion the biggest difference you get with helpers is that your priorities shift to become much more about routing and perfecting maps to the best times humanly possible, rather than trying to be good at approximating how to gain the most speed (which is a skill so time consuming to learn that MOST people just won't have the patience to do it, unfortunately).

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Dinius • December 03, 2014
Read my above reply, had bad timing here I think, reading yours now..:P
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Dinius • December 03, 2014
Is it "humanly possible" when you've got the line to help you though? It's practically impossible to be as consistently good without the helpers as you can be with them. 
But anyways, I know this whole thing will be a major cause of frustration for many existing jumpers if it's not included. Just like it'll be a for those who are against it if I DO include it.. So reaching a truly final and all around satisfying decision isn't easy.. :P
E: another thought, the goal should imo be rather to try to attract new players, not please existing jumpers. Don't take me wrong, existing jumpers are more than welcome, but pleasing them all is just not a realistic goal. We do need new players as well, and I think the handicap method (with a lot more planning) could be a fairly good solution to that, and also be a sort of compromise allowing the split records like you mentioned initially..
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Dinius • December 03, 2014
And do keep on disagreeing, I'd much rather argue to find a better solution than just having people constantly agree with me :)
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stealth • December 03, 2014
I agree with Dinius. Kappa
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TimothyK • December 03, 2014
Is it a good idea to divide the records too much though?
I think making a comprimise by giving players the option to play online with cgaz hud but not allowing them to login with it would be best.
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Dinius • December 03, 2014
Nah I'd rather not divide it at all tbh :P
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huPo • December 04, 2014
For the ones that feel the need to use helper, it's about time to learn to strafe on their own. Having lines to watch is just way too easy, and I personally don't respect anyone who uses them. I also think it would be extremely stupid to have separate rankings/database for lame times set with helpers. I do agree however that using them online could be done, but your time wouldn't register into any ranking until you take the helpers off. However I'm concerned on how easily a cvar unlocker or some similar cheat could be made to use it in records anyway. For that reason I wouldn't have any strafe helper at all in the game.
I don't really see any other argument in this matter, than that the jumpers from other games would actually need to learn to strafe, which is only a good thing. Who would want to play a game where you master everything from the very first moment?
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stealth • December 04, 2014
Who would want to play a game where you master everything from the very first moment?
by huPo

 

A shit-ton of people. Source: Modern game innovation / design.
But as I already said I agree with Dinius - no helpers for setting times.
(How do you quote somebody? When I click the quotation marks on HuPo's post it quotes the OP)
If there were split rankings then what would be the motivation to play without helpers? Only the hardcore players would play without or on both (ranklists) imo. I'm thinking of D3 / PoE where you have softcore (unlimited lives) vs hardcore (1 life). Hardcore tends to have a smaller playerbase which in our case would mean less people to compete against -> "no helper" ranklist becomes elitist -> "no helper" ranklist dies.

Theodorus • December 04, 2014
how about: Allow helpers, but instead of giving them a separate ranking list give them no ranking at all.
make the times set with helpers save on their client or locally or whatever.

So they can still play with helpers, the rankings wont be defiled and they can still see their old time,checkpoints and run-stats so they can improve and play, just not competitively

 

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Dinius • December 04, 2014

I agree with the whole no-helpers-when-setting-records part obviously. But as hupo said, it'd be fairly easy to cheat. Much easier than it would be to create a separate "helper" on its own that would just hook into the game.

@stealth, hmm, seems the quote doesn't work so well in this topic, could be because it's so many replies or something, will look into it. Normally you CAN also just select the text, at which point you get a green "quote" button.
Who would want to play a game where you master everything from the very first moment?
by huPo
But then we have this. Where I agree so so much with stealth. Basically every popular game is extremely much easier than RIK, and generally something you can sit down and play on a relatively 'ok' level without spending much time on it. And it's not like you master everything from the start if you got the helpers, just means that you could be among the top players a lot sooner than without. So this is more of a reason TO enable it, i.e. making it easier for new players etc.. But still, I don't think that little thing would actually make much of a difference for new players, at least not as long as they could use the helper to learn 'basic' strafe in the singleplayer..
Image
I read something yesterday that I think applies here. It explains how some changes in QL removed some of the skill factor, and hence the 'fun factor'.  This is from a negative 'review' on steam, for quake live.
Image

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Dinius • December 04, 2014

(How do you quote somebody? When I click the quotation marks on HuPo's post it quotes the OP)

by stealth

 Fixed for now :)

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stealth • December 04, 2014
Well QL definitely catered to the masses with that patch. If it didn't have such a horrendous UI I might play it more. I don't feel like the changes completely ruined the game: If you're a good player you still wreck the enemy, meanwhile it's been made more accessible for new players. They no longer have to memorize the layout of a map - They just spawn & frag!
Imo it was a good change. Now my friends don't ragequit after 2 minutes. It takes 10-20 minutes and I can convince them to play it again :)
Anyway since every run has a demo and the record demos are uploaded? Maybe something could be implemented like CS:GO overwatch? Nobody goes from 0 skill to perfect angles and the community is quite small atm so I think it would be possible to decipher if somebody was cheating or not. Besides when ProjectRIK is played at DHW 2015 how will these so called "pros" hide their helpers? :D
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QaleQ • December 04, 2014

All I know is, there's a reason the hardcore games don't get as many new players as they used to. There's just too much competition in the game market, and people don't like feeling like noobs.

People find warsow race way too challenging 99% of the time (or even more, I'd say). They just don't feel it's worth the hassle to try to become good at it, since it's still extremely time consuming to become good at, even with the helpers.
And in no way does helpers eliminate skill requirement. I dominate almost every map I play, and in most cases I get the record by a considerable amount of time. Everyone sees the helpers, but that's not all it takes. Far from it.
Not having them at all will result in a much smaller community. Allowing them, but not storing the times, would more than likely result in many people playing casually once in a while, but not bothering with tryharding to get a good toplist entry. Seems likely that this would serve almost as big a blow to the competetiveness of the rankings (especially in the top section), as divided toplists would.
You simply can't "force" helper-dependent people to not use helpers and expect them to stay, when they have a game they're already used to, where they perform better and that allow the tools they consider a part of racing.
A small but highly skilled (at approximating speed gain, that is) community might be what the devs are looking for, then so be it. But in my eyes, if you don't do as much as possible to make this game appeal to all racers, it'll just end up being one more game that divides us even further.

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Dinius • December 04, 2014
I agree.. But, there are so very few actual racers left. And I think quite a high percentage of them are fairly happy where they are. That being said, if helpers are enabled, more would indeed switch over. About the a lot of people would play casually if helpers were enabled etc, I think if you can play well enough with the helpers you can also play pretty good or even as good as lot of the time without them. So if you're actually skilled enough to compete with the helper, it's not like you're completely useless and just wouldn't wanna even try to set a real record without them..
And just for the record, I never said it removes the skill needed, nor is it what I believe. 
About playerbase, if we can have just 100 active players that'd be great imo. There's simply no way a game as hard as this would be very popular, as you say most people aren't willing to spend time learning harder things.
But then again, for a NEW player, whether or not they can use the helper for setting records won't really matter imo. There's simply no way they could even be close to competing with top times without investing quite a lot of time, even with helpers enabled. Hence I don't see helper-records as something that would actually draw new players. I think it could even turn them off, I at least would imagine someone could think "Oh, they're just good at aiming to hit that line.." 
Point being, I don't really think that enabling the helpers for records would make any sort of positive difference for the new players.
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Dinius • December 04, 2014
I'm starting to think we just have to take a final stand on this. These are the relevant alternatives in my opinion..
  • 1: Helper enabled for everything, even online records. Shared record list. But helper times are "marked" as such and it can be sorted so you CAN see overall #1 non-helper user and so forth. But by default it's all shared. Being a non-helper user I'd be perfectly fine with this personally, but I do feel it takes a little something away from the whole experience by allowing it.
  • 2: No helper at all, maybe for single player strafe tutorial, but nothing else.
  • 3: Helper enabled for everything, but you can't set official records with them. They'll be saved clientside (on your pc) but not on the official rankings.
Might also consider point #1 but make the helper a bit less than 100% effective.. So a bit more of a guide than an actual display of the perfect angle..
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TimothyK • December 04, 2014
Just to clarify, by helper do you mean a similar hud like the one in ET because that thing is terrible. :P (But I guess it would be the most noob friendly)
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Dinius • December 04, 2014
By helper I mean something that shows you the actual angle. In RIK would probably just be a discrete line or so, like Arcaon suggested. Defrag's cgaz hud is overkill, and the drawcgaz 2 from ET is popular but too ugly.. (and imo a lot worse than df's cgaz hud) But nothing wrong with alternative ways of showing it though..
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stealth • December 04, 2014
From my understanding everybody gets some basic tools to work with: Speedometer (how fast your going) & accelerometer (how fast you're accelerating). Helper is showing the player the perfect angle, so yes like the thingy in ET.
The discussion is should cgaz be allowed for official records & to what extent?
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stealth • December 04, 2014
Well Good luck on this decision :D it's a tough one. QaleQ has raised some really good points.
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Dinius • December 04, 2014
Arcaon promised me a minimum 10 page essay on this subject tomorrow, so let's wait for that.. :)
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huPo • December 04, 2014
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Arcaon • December 05, 2014
Alright, so I use the cgaz hud in Defrag. Always have, always will.
But Arcaon, our Lord and Savior, you've played this game for six years now - haven't you learned where to aim to accelerate?
It seems like I have. As a spontaneous test, I once tried playing without the cgaz hud for an hour, on a typical downhill angle-finding strafewhore map with a few turns. The result? I improved my record within minutes, and had positive checkpoints a better portion of the time. I also had to restart my run an unusually high amount of times, because I had missed the good strafe angle by a pixel or two, and therefore had gained 0 ups instead of 100.
The issue here is thus not about lacking strafe skills, but about consistency. It's about safety, that your normal performance will give you roughly the expected results. It minimizes the dice-throwing aspect of strafing. Not only that, this strafe helper is not as much of a helper as you might think.
Here is an interesting fact that you might not be aware of if you are not a high-ranking player. It took me at least 1.5 years to figure out, and the fact that I've previously in this post used the word "angle-finding" demonstrates that I haven't mastered it. The "optimal" strafe angle is not optimal at all. The conventional conception that the closer you are to the lime green line, the faster you accelerate, is useful, but not truthful. The only thing that teal-colored graphical area on your screen tells you is that you won't lose speed by keeping your crosshair inside it.
Let me explain. The bigger the difference between the direction in which the player is going, and the direction in which the player intends to go, the less he accelerates from strafejumping. He can prevent this by either using the +forward key to adjust the player's direction (you'll see me doing quick +forward jerks sometimes), or by aiming closer to the "bad end" of the acceleration area to speed up the direction adjustment, or more likely some combination of both. If a great player strafes around a 90 degree corner, he will likely be aiming closer to the middle of the cgaz acceleration area.
Now that I've told you all that, let's rewind a few paragraphs. When I talked about me missing the optimal angle and having to restart a run, I didn't refer to missing the acceleration area completely. I was talking about missing the optimal angle within the acceleration area, because I had nothing to visually relate to. I could accidentally be right inside the lime green line and get a disappointingly bad acceleration because I needed to aim intentionally "bad" to adjust for the direction mismatch. So as you can imagine, some players who have used the cgaz hud for many years might not be competing for top ranks because they fail to account for things like these.
Alright Arcaon, it does make some sense what you're saying, but it definitely doesn't warrant some incomprehensible script kiddie techno-HUD that confused players are going to have to learn, so we're probably better off without it!
Fuck, my plan is foiled. You win.
. . .
Actually, one pixel is all I need. In theory. As long as I can learn over time that I gain the most speed by staying 1 centimeter away from the non-acceleration area when doing a 90 degree turn at 1200 ups, strafing will start to make intuitive sense. Otherwise, it's just an abstract gut feeling that can unpredictably make or break your speed, that you will never overcome even as you gain more skill. Of course, a single pixel will be hard to see a lot of the time, but the principle remains - a small circle, a short line, a miniscule extra crosshair or whatever would be the least visually intrusive would do. It's hard to get less cluttered than that, and it's a drop in the sea of everything else that could reasonably be going on on the screen.
Send postcards,
Arcaon
EDIT: I forgot one point that I had intended to write from the start. I guess it comes down to what skills you value in the game. I value innovation/routefinding, mastering existing techniques, mouse control and eye-hand coordination. I don't value "feeling" world coordinate angles highly enough to warrant doubling the amount of imperfections per five seconds (and thus increasing the frustration for players like me).
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QaleQ • December 06, 2014
Well said, Arcaon. I fully agree with, and relate to, everything you said. I must say though; I always assumed the accel to turning ratio inside the "optimal angle" was common knowledge among racers (especially old schoolers)!
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TimothyK • December 06, 2014
Well said. I might not be as good as you but I can definitely relate to what you're saying. It's not that you need cgaz hud it's just that it's a lot more preferable. At a pro level cgaz hud matters very little, but it's the small part that does matter that makes it a whole lot less frustrating. It's not some magic tool/cheat that increases your skill by a 100 times.
That said, I do think that the cgaz hud is a huge help for newcomers. It makes learning how to strafe a lot easier and closes the gap between skilled players a lot sooner. I'll let you decide if that's a good thing or not.
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huPo • December 06, 2014
So as you can imagine, some players who have used the cgaz hud for many years might not be competing for top ranks because they fail to account for things like these.
by Arcaon

 Well this would be their real skill then. If strafe helper makes any difference to non-strafe helper players, it shouldn't be put in. Being the best strafer would actually mean something without helpers.

Time for you to learn to strafe! :)

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Dinius • December 06, 2014
There once was a man from Nantucket.. Oh wait, cgaz hud is the topic.
  
First off, there's currently two options:
#1: No helpers at all, maybe a light version for singleplayer strafe tutorials but nothing else.
#2: Allow it freely.
The previous option #3 is no longer relevant. Long story very short, it would be damn frustrating and secondly, if you can play with helpers on a run map for a while then just turn it off for a run or two you would basically be "tuned in" to the helper-shown angles, and so the whole no-helper-in-record-runs point would be gone.
So then, to the main point, here's how I see it, having been a faithful helper-user for as long as I can remember, and I'd really hate to see it go, but I have to face the facts.. (Ok that was a lie.)
 
Valid arguments FOR allowing the helpers:
  • Makes it easier for new players to learn strafing (but they could do that in the tutorials) so move this to the against list :p
  • New players can more quickly compete with "top players".
  • Existing dfers and warsowians would be more likely to switch over. Though at least most dfers doesn't seem to mind not having it all too much. Although that might just be because they're hoping they'll beat Arcaon when he's not using it.
  
Valid arguments AGAINST allowing the helpers:
  • Theres no real reason why it should even be there in the first place, it is essentially a "cheat", just that it's allowed for everyone and hence you're not actually cheating as such..
  • Strafe is easier than in defrag, so that alone makes the strafe-skill-floor a bit lower for new players.
  • New players could view the helpers as a bad thing. "Oh, you just have to aim at that line, easy, boring, fuck this". (This is of course not actually the case, but it could be a real scenario)
  • The whole consistency bit is imo an argument against the helpers, not for. See point 1 in the against list.
  • "Feeling" the angles is imo a fun thing. Sure it's harder and less precise than the gaz hud. But it's a game. It's meant to be fun :P
   
As far as the whole "feel world coordinates" thing goes. That is indeed a skill in its own regard, just like the other things you mention. And it is something you can learn very close to cgaz level. It's just that you can't be as consistent with your "feelings" as you would be with a gaz hud. 
It's kind of like playing angry birds, but you'd have a line that shows you exactly where your bird would hit. You'd still have to pull the thingy back, and release it. And even "explode" the bird or w\e at the right time, and so forth. So it wouldn't take the whole point away, but it would sure make it easier and to be honest, quite lame.
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stealth • December 06, 2014
Ok I've decided. #3, but records with helpers are flagged as such on leaderboard.
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Dinius • December 06, 2014
The previous option #3 is no longer relevant.
by Dinius

 Funny man. :P

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stealth • December 06, 2014
lol I meant #2
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QaleQ • December 06, 2014
Non-helper users don't abandon a game because it allows helpers (then they'd have nowhere to go). The opposite is true, however.. Something to ponder whilst making up your mind.
I would really like to see this game become THE racing game, and it has the potential to be just that. Not appealing to as many people as possible will just make this game YARG (yet another racing game) though.
I'll more than likely switch to RIK full-time no matter which decision you end up making. I just wish to have as much competition as possible, which is why I'm strongly advocate you go with #2
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huPo • December 06, 2014
Non-helper users don’t abandon a game because it allows helpers
by QaleQ

 I would and have before =)

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Dinius • December 06, 2014
I get that argument. BUT I don't agree that the whole helper issue will be that deciding on it. Helpers for tutorials, sure. But there's people who are against it just as well as there is people who are for it. It's just not that "clear cut" as some of you guys make it out to be :p (no offense intended at all).
And some people will probably end up disliking the final decision anyways, whatever it might be.
  
At the moment I'm thinking about some alternate method for this. As in, not a line \ "aim help" but some other technique that essentially gives much the same result. So the anti-helper crowd won't be mad that you can just aim at some line, and at the same time you would get at least most of the benefits you would with a typical gaz hud. Currently on the early thinking stage, but something like that could be a good compromise.
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Dinius • December 06, 2014
 I would and have before =)
by huPo
My point exactly, and he isn't alone. (not that we should base the decision on what hupo thinks though, that would be madness :D )
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QaleQ • December 06, 2014
I would and have before =)
by huPo
Where'd you find a game where noone uses helpers, huPo? And how successful/active is this game?
How safe is it that noone's gonna be able to add helpers as a cheat in the future, if they end up not being allowed, btw?
At the moment I’m thinking about some alternate method for this.
by Dinius
I'll do my best trying to come up with some idea for this too.
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Dinius • December 06, 2014
Great, let me know :idea:
And yea, that cheat thing is a very good point as well :p
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huPo • December 07, 2014
There isn't one game existing yet where no one uses helpers. Which is why I'm into developing RIK. If this would be yet another game like that, I would stop immediately. Might be that Dinius is going to be a sell out, but originally I recall he was trying to build a game that he would like to play, instead of making it a noob-friendly game that has very low skill dependancy.
As for the other part; Probably every fragging game has some sort of aimbot cheats for them. Would it fix the problem if all the players would have aimbot option in the game?
Obviously someone will make cheats for RIK eventually too. It will be handled like cheating in every other game. If you get caught, you are punished. In this case, all records wiped clean + profile marked as cheater for eternity.
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stealth • December 07, 2014
Why would you be opposed to allowing helper players to compete against helper players & non-helper to compete against non-helper?
Then you have a larger player base, with probably a 80-20 split on helper - non helper. Otherwise you have 100% non helper players, but a much smaller player base. The only problem I have with this is that there is no incentive to ever stop using helpers, but at least this way people who believe helpers are the antichrist can compete against other like-minded players.
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Dinius • December 07, 2014
@hupo, Calling it noob friendly with low skill dependency is just dumb., @stealth, Would rather just allow it freey,with possibly marking cgaz users so you COULD compare yourself only to non users..But like I think I explained above itd be kinda pointess :(
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QaleQ • December 07, 2014

Probably every fragging game has some sort of aimbot cheats for them. Would it fix the problem if all the players would have aimbot option in the game?
by huPo
Broken argument..
Also, you won't ever be able to catch a helper user. I believe you're confusing strafebots with strafehelpers.

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Dinius • December 07, 2014
Sure you could, no way Im elaborating on that, but I can assure you it's a very real possibility to "catch helper users" as well :mrgreen:
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QaleQ • December 07, 2014
Sure you could, no way Im elaborating on that, but I can assure you it's a very real possibility to "catch helper users" as well :mrgreen:
by Dinius

I can't imagine how you'd do that, but that's reassuring to hear at least, in case you decide against adding H (:P)

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Dinius • December 07, 2014
On a side note, I suggest helper-lovers have a look at this, it's 'loosely' based on the AA 12 step program :p See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program
1: We admitted we were powerless over strafe helpers - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of RIK as we understand it.
4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5: Admitted to RIK Devs, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6: Were entirely ready to have RIK remove all these defects of character.
7: Humbly asked RIK to remove our shortcomings.
8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11: Sought through practice and patience to improve our helper-free strafe skills in RIK as best we are able, praying only for good times in RIK without the use of such evil tools.
12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to helper-users and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
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Dinius • December 07, 2014
But really though, as an alternative, how about an accel meter of sorts? See images below, just some photoshopped example at this point. Couldn't something like this be a good compromise? This way nothing tells you where\how to aim, but you get clear information that you're actually "strafing good" / hitting angles / whatever you want to call it..
Image
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QaleQ • December 07, 2014
So long as you're confident that you can "bust" anyone using more precise tools, then I'm content with just having an accel bar. We have a very similar one in Warsow, and I find I can pretty much match my "full helper" strafing using it. (And if i can't, I still have a visual cue letting me know when I mess up)
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Dinius • December 07, 2014
Bust everyone and anyone for all eternity in every conceivable scenario, no. But that goes for both "more precise tools" and strafebots as well. Just like in every other game there are possibilities to cheat. But I do have multiple ways I can "bust" people if they use some additional tools etc :)
 
 
But yeah, good to hear. At the moment I actually have far more people saying they'd much rather not have the helpers at all, compared to the ones who want it. Just that the other guys aren't here posting "I don't want it" on the forum.. But the point is that for most (if not all?) of those people, this would be an acceptable solution. It's basically just a bit nicer version of having to watch a typical speed counter above the crosshair or something along those lines..
 
How does the one in warsow look\work? Wanna give a screenshot or something?
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QaleQ • December 07, 2014

Let's hope people will unanimously find this alternative acceptable :)

As for the warsow one, seems I had it enabled in one of my YT-vids:
Youtube video

The backdrop makes sense to have for differently colored maps, but other than that it's not very pretty, and it tends to twitch quite alot (albeit that's kind of understandable).

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Dinius • December 07, 2014
Yeah was pretty much how I thought. Could make it a setting to average it from e.g. last 4 frames or something, or even just animate it a bit to avoid the twitching, but if it just displays the "raw data" then you can't get around it :) The "raw data" way would probably be preferable for most people anyways, seeing as it's more exact etc..
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Dinius • December 08, 2014
An actual ingame example of something.. (WIP :P )
Just testing at the moment, but e.g. this shows up to 5 dots depending on your actual acceleration, in the screenshot below I'm gaining 95% of the speed I could possibly gain.
http://i.imgur.com/hs0GrEu.jpg
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Dinius • December 08, 2014
Another version
Image
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QaleQ • December 08, 2014
An actual ingame example of something.. (WIP :P )
Just testing at the moment, but e.g. this shows up to 5 dots depending on your actual acceleration, in the screenshot below I'm gaining 95% of the speed I could possibly gain.
http://i.imgur.com/hs0GrEu.jpg
by Dinius

 Maybe allow different types of accel meters? I'd personally go with your first example over this. But I'm meticulous about perfection (as i suspect many of us are :p)

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Dinius • December 08, 2014
Yeah will probably include all the 3 versions mentioned so far. But with the dot-version, it goes at 90% to the final dot atm, which could be changed on a per-player basis. It's a lot easier to notice if that fifth dot is there, than it is to see if the bar is e.g. >95% full, at least I find it easier :p
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stealth • December 08, 2014
Can you make a ring around the crosshair and the bar goes clockwise around the ring so if both sides are touching then you're at 100% accel or something like that. Maybe split the bar in 2 halves bla bla bla paint easier:
Image
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Dinius • December 08, 2014
Shouldn't the 50% be the other way, so it looks like a :( instead of a :) though? :P
Not quite sure how it would actually be drawn properly like that atm, might need to separate it into small line segments or something, but it could be good :)
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stealth • December 08, 2014
Depends if the speedometer is on the top or bottom. It's just so I only need to look at 1 spot on the screen to see both easily.
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Dinius • December 08, 2014
Image
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stealth • December 09, 2014
Are those the current helper options? :D
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Dinius • December 09, 2014
Well yeah, kind of :p:mrgreen:
It's from the "if quake was done today" video, I just felt it was kinda fitting .. :P
Youtube video
 
No helpers -> default
accel meter -> a bit easier
angle helper (gaz hud) -> even easier
full autojump -> even less you have to do
so, I can see the next would be "this strafing is so hard on my wrist, can't we just have it done automatically for those who want it, then people can focus on finding routes instead!"
 
No offense :twisted::p
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stealth • December 10, 2014
Did the bots made for df find the routes themselves or was it just a script. (programmed route?)
I've always wanted to see something like this
Youtube video
 but in 3D.
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Dinius • December 10, 2014
Non-scripted df bots either work from a demo or just like a typical strafe bot. Seti made one some years ago where you just aimed at where you wanted to go and the bot did the rest (without your view changing, others would see you strafing but you wouldn't see the side to side movements, you'd just point where you wanted to go). Was ofc just a proof-of-concept type of thing but I guess that's about as close as you'll get, afaik at least :P
Mush • January 29, 2015
I'm one of the slower people around here I think but even so I personally never liked cgaz. I'm okay with a speed or acceleration meter but anything showing angles or sorts of that is for me personally cheatish.
Perhaps I could be faster and better over time using it but then I wonder whats the point in runs.. Its like saying to a racedriver here's your car just look at the hud on your windscreen and follow the data and you'll get pole easy. And about the consistency Arcaon talked about, well honestly, thats just what would set appart the better from the great from the truly great ..
That is the way I view this.
At the same time its true it might help new players but there was also a time when people didn't use the anglehelp, as far as I know, in E.T. And people had fun and tried to learn things regardless.
If I have to pick a choice I go for no helpers apart from a speed and accelometer.
Anything beyond those 2 takes away some of the fun of trying to be better.
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Piercy • January 30, 2015

Saw this at the top again so thought i'd post.  I see in the original post you said about speed that goes green or red when gaining or losing speed...

Is this the thing you showed me how to enable the other day?  Are we comparing that to cgaz?  I know you said use the term "strafe helpers" but i feel the colour thing isn't really an advantage (maybe people disagree?) on strafing.  It just makes the information your seeing easier to deduce.  For me the colours on the speed (red for losing, green for gaining) keeps me more focused on my actual run / movement than the specific numbers.  I don't consider this to be the same sort of helper as cgaz but maybe people do.  Whats the verdict / consensus on that?  
Heres an example, green because the number has increased.

 larger version

Image

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Piercy • January 30, 2015
cant edit this for some reason, but also just realised theres green dots under it. I dont want the green dots purely the colours numbers. 
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Dinius • January 30, 2015
Well, some argue against those type of helpers too. But imo they're fine, and a good compromise to make some of the previous "cgaz users" happy :P
comeonwillthiswork • February 05, 2015
Where'd you find a game where noone uses helpers, huPo? And how successful/active is this game?How safe is it that noone's gonna be able to add helpers as a cheat in the future, if they end up not being allowed, btw?
by QaleQ

When warsow race was most active it did not have any helpers. That is just a very recent thing that came into warsow race. Imo it was an awful idea to bring it in in the first place. The reasoning for it seemed to be, "oh well, defrag has it".

Not that it would actually add anything. Defrag has done a lot of things right but the strafe helpers is not one of them.

jaymod • April 03, 2015

"Allowing them, but not storing the times, would more than likely result in many people playing casually once in a while, but not bothering with tryharding to get a good toplist entry."


I dont care about rankings. Also in LoL 1000 Plays 8 of them r ranked... In CS:GO i just visited competition to see how it is...

After that what i heard, if the games comes out, Im a style-jumper, I jump for the style!

If the games comes out, I rent a server (to help the developer to get money for this amazing work) and will add mods like autojump/autoaircontrol and try to produce some surf maps, which makes fun...

Pls dont focus toooooo much this ranking system!

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huPo • April 03, 2015
I fail to see how renting a server would give Dinius any money, unless it's him you're planning on renting the server from (which wouldn't really make any sense either). The stand on mods in RIK is 100% no-no. There's no reason to make mods that ruin the original gameplay and no reason to make mods at all when the game itself is being actively developed.


Ranking system has to be pretty damn good since that's the whole basis of this game. So yes, there should be a lot of focus in it.

jotr • April 10, 2015

and with what should he make money?! He doesnt sell the game, doesnt give server files. So the logical last thing is:

- Sell Game-Items like Skins, Higher-Jumps Pay2WIn??
- Let ppl rent your servers


So ok I already understand, ranking is basis of this game.... OK, I hope you get alot ppl and have fun (really). Thats not my kind of fun, if the basis of the gameplay is to rank me!

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Dinius • April 10, 2015

"Renting" servers that are managed and hosted by me/us, without you having full access to them, might happen in the future, but nothing planned for "right away". The main point there would be private servers, "clan-type" servers, or just to support the game.

If you'd read up a bit here on the forum, I think it should be fairly obvious that there are quite a few other aspects aside from the ranked timerun mode. Although that IS the main focus of this game.

Also, regardless of rented servers or alike, mods are absolutely not relevant.

Nor will there be any pay2win sort of things. I have misc things planned that could be relevant for bringing in some money, but there's no point in discuss that right now. Focusing on getting the basis of the game stable in an open beta first. Long story short, this game is basically way too difficult (to learn\\become good at) to make any actual money from it. Best case scenario it's "self-sufficient".

NujaK • April 14, 2015

I don't think any of you ride your bike with training wheels. That's how I see a 'Strafe Helper'. I was taught how to strafe/pg climb by Shio, who never used cgaz. I think a 'basic' accel meter would be alright even though it still kind'ah gives the right angles away.