- Speed above\under or in crosshair center
- Color changing, either of the text or the actual crosshair, when you're gaining\losing speed.
- A "rotator" around the crosshair, rotates faster the more quickly you're gaining speed etc.. See image below
I support the original idea, as in nothing at all if you're playing online. Go offline for learning.by huPo
I think it would make more sense to enable them to use the helpers on any servers, just that their times wouldn't be sent to the rankings list. It would still be set on the server right then so others could see it, but would be marked that it was set using "helpers". This way they could even practice with the helper and then set an actual time without later on.. Don't like the idea of having separate ranking systems, especially not for something as "trivial" as this.I know there's (quite) a few people who are used to "helpers". And I'm not at all against the "alternative" helpers listed above, or possibly others, those would be allowed regardless. I'm just against having something that actually shows you the exact angle, I don't see how that's different to e.g. a wallhack.But yes, enabling it freely would more easily attract a few of the existing jumpers, hence the reason for this topic. But I don't think splitting it up at rankings is a good solution either. The people I know at least wouldn't find it very interesting to be sorted into some separate helper-only list which wouldn't "really" matter, just be a secondary thing to the actual "real" rankings list.by Dinius
Yes, if using helpers during a run would simply flag that run, that would be alot better, for sure. However, I really do think those assisted runs need to be stored somehow, preferably in a seperate toplist.I believe many players would only play with helpers, if the option was there, and they wouldn't enjoy it for long if they couldn't re-play a map and see if they'd improved since the last time they played it. Having a toplist would also help us avoid people making false claims about what times have they've achieved.Practically every Warsow racer use helpers. I wouldn't qualify that as being comparable to wallhacking, since wallhacking is something solely used for cheating, effectively implying you get an unfair upper hand over the people you compete against. That isn't the case if everyone is given the option, and you only compete against the people with the same setting as youself.I only suggested helper-runs be "unranked" because I've gotten the feeling a big chunk of the combined race-communities frown upon using helpers, which is understandably frustrating if you, as a non-helper user share a toplist with the helper user. Especially if there's no way to tell who uses it and who doesn't.So, just two seperate toplists, each with their own individual ranking, is what I guess I'd like to see. Second choice being the anti-helper approach, having no option for helpers at all.Just to clarify, I use the word "helpers" to describe displaying exact point to aim at/speed to move mouse, here, not the "hinting" helpers
Mixing helper runs with non-helper runs will still be discouraging for non-helper guys i believe. Though i guess you could use some variation of the toplist command to only display one, the other or both together.I absolutely understand your way of looking at this whole thing, but I do have to disagree about "It makes the whole competition into a game of “hit the line on your screen”."In my opinion the biggest difference you get with helpers is that your priorities shift to become much more about routing and perfecting maps to the best times humanly possible, rather than trying to be good at approximating how to gain the most speed (which is a skill so time consuming to learn that MOST people just won't have the patience to do it, unfortunately).
Who would want to play a game where you master everything from the very first moment?by huPo
A shit-ton of people. Source: Modern game innovation / design.But as I already said I agree with Dinius - no helpers for setting times.(How do you quote somebody? When I click the quotation marks on HuPo's post it quotes the OP)If there were split rankings then what would be the motivation to play without helpers? Only the hardcore players would play without or on both (ranklists) imo. I'm thinking of D3 / PoE where you have softcore (unlimited lives) vs hardcore (1 life). Hardcore tends to have a smaller playerbase which in our case would mean less people to compete against -> "no helper" ranklist becomes elitist -> "no helper" ranklist dies.
So they can still play with helpers, the rankings wont be defiled and they can still see their old time,checkpoints and run-stats so they can improve and play, just not competitively
I agree with the whole no-helpers-when-setting-records part obviously. But as hupo said, it'd be fairly easy to cheat. Much easier than it would be to create a separate "helper" on its own that would just hook into the game.@stealth, hmm, seems the quote doesn't work so well in this topic, could be because it's so many replies or something, will look into it. Normally you CAN also just select the text, at which point you get a green "quote" button.
Who would want to play a game where you master everything from the very first moment?But then we have this. Where I agree so so much with stealth. Basically every popular game is extremely much easier than RIK, and generally something you can sit down and play on a relatively 'ok' level without spending much time on it. And it's not like you master everything from the start if you got the helpers, just means that you could be among the top players a lot sooner than without. So this is more of a reason TO enable it, i.e. making it easier for new players etc.. But still, I don't think that little thing would actually make much of a difference for new players, at least not as long as they could use the helper to learn 'basic' strafe in the singleplayer..I read something yesterday that I think applies here. It explains how some changes in QL removed some of the skill factor, and hence the 'fun factor'. This is from a negative 'review' on steam, for quake live.by huPo
(How do you quote somebody? When I click the quotation marks on HuPo's post it quotes the OP)by stealth
Fixed for now :)
All I know is, there's a reason the hardcore games don't get as many new players as they used to. There's just too much competition in the game market, and people don't like feeling like noobs.People find warsow race way too challenging 99% of the time (or even more, I'd say). They just don't feel it's worth the hassle to try to become good at it, since it's still extremely time consuming to become good at, even with the helpers.And in no way does helpers eliminate skill requirement. I dominate almost every map I play, and in most cases I get the record by a considerable amount of time. Everyone sees the helpers, but that's not all it takes. Far from it.Not having them at all will result in a much smaller community. Allowing them, but not storing the times, would more than likely result in many people playing casually once in a while, but not bothering with tryharding to get a good toplist entry. Seems likely that this would serve almost as big a blow to the competetiveness of the rankings (especially in the top section), as divided toplists would.You simply can't "force" helper-dependent people to not use helpers and expect them to stay, when they have a game they're already used to, where they perform better and that allow the tools they consider a part of racing.A small but highly skilled (at approximating speed gain, that is) community might be what the devs are looking for, then so be it. But in my eyes, if you don't do as much as possible to make this game appeal to all racers, it'll just end up being one more game that divides us even further.
So as you can imagine, some players who have used the cgaz hud for many years might not be competing for top ranks because they fail to account for things like these.by Arcaon
Well this would be their real skill then. If strafe helper makes any difference to non-strafe helper players, it shouldn't be put in. Being the best strafer would actually mean something without helpers.Time for you to learn to strafe! :)
The previous option #3 is no longer relevant.by Dinius
Funny man. :P
Non-helper users don’t abandon a game because it allows helpersby QaleQ
I would and have before =)
I would and have before =)My point exactly, and he isn't alone. (not that we should base the decision on what hupo thinks though, that would be madness :D )by huPo
I would and have before =)Where'd you find a game where noone uses helpers, huPo? And how successful/active is this game?How safe is it that noone's gonna be able to add helpers as a cheat in the future, if they end up not being allowed, btw?by huPo
At the moment I’m thinking about some alternate method for this.I'll do my best trying to come up with some idea for this too.by Dinius
Probably every fragging game has some sort of aimbot cheats for them. Would it fix the problem if all the players would have aimbot option in the game?Broken argument..Also, you won't ever be able to catch a helper user. I believe you're confusing strafebots with strafehelpers.by huPo
Sure you could, no way Im elaborating on that, but I can assure you it's a very real possibility to "catch helper users" as well :mrgreen:by Dinius
I can't imagine how you'd do that, but that's reassuring to hear at least, in case you decide against adding H (:P)
Let's hope people will unanimously find this alternative acceptable :)As for the warsow one, seems I had it enabled in one of my YT-vids:
The backdrop makes sense to have for differently colored maps, but other than that it's not very pretty, and it tends to twitch quite alot (albeit that's kind of understandable).
An actual ingame example of something.. (WIP :P )Just testing at the moment, but e.g. this shows up to 5 dots depending on your actual acceleration, in the screenshot below I'm gaining 95% of the speed I could possibly gain.http://i.imgur.com/hs0GrEu.jpgby Dinius
Maybe allow different types of accel meters? I'd personally go with your first example over this. But I'm meticulous about perfection (as i suspect many of us are :p)
Saw this at the top again so thought i'd post. I see in the original post you said about speed that goes green or red when gaining or losing speed...Is this the thing you showed me how to enable the other day? Are we comparing that to cgaz? I know you said use the term "strafe helpers" but i feel the colour thing isn't really an advantage (maybe people disagree?) on strafing. It just makes the information your seeing easier to deduce. For me the colours on the speed (red for losing, green for gaining) keeps me more focused on my actual run / movement than the specific numbers. I don't consider this to be the same sort of helper as cgaz but maybe people do. Whats the verdict / consensus on that? Heres an example, green because the number has increased.
Where'd you find a game where noone uses helpers, huPo? And how successful/active is this game?How safe is it that noone's gonna be able to add helpers as a cheat in the future, if they end up not being allowed, btw?by QaleQ
When warsow race was most active it did not have any helpers. That is just a very recent thing that came into warsow race. Imo it was an awful idea to bring it in in the first place. The reasoning for it seemed to be, "oh well, defrag has it".Not that it would actually add anything. Defrag has done a lot of things right but the strafe helpers is not one of them.
"Allowing them, but not storing the times, would more than likely result in many people playing casually once in a while, but not bothering with tryharding to get a good toplist entry."
I dont care about rankings. Also in LoL 1000 Plays 8 of them r ranked... In CS:GO i just visited competition to see how it is...
After that what i heard, if the games comes out, Im a style-jumper, I jump for the style!
If the games comes out, I rent a server (to help the developer to get money for this amazing work) and will add mods like autojump/autoaircontrol and try to produce some surf maps, which makes fun...
Pls dont focus toooooo much this ranking system!
Ranking system has to be pretty damn good since that's the whole basis of this game. So yes, there should be a lot of focus in it.
and with what should he make money?! He doesnt sell the game, doesnt give server files. So the logical last thing is:
- Sell Game-Items like Skins, Higher-Jumps Pay2WIn??
- Let ppl rent your servers
So ok I already understand, ranking is basis of this game.... OK, I hope you get alot ppl and have fun (really). Thats not my kind of fun, if the basis of the gameplay is to rank me!
"Renting" servers that are managed and hosted by me/us, without you having full access to them, might happen in the future, but nothing planned for "right away". The main point there would be private servers, "clan-type" servers, or just to support the game.
If you'd read up a bit here on the forum, I think it should be fairly obvious that there are quite a few other aspects aside from the ranked timerun mode. Although that IS the main focus of this game.
Also, regardless of rented servers or alike, mods are absolutely not relevant.
Nor will there be any pay2win sort of things. I have misc things planned that could be relevant for bringing in some money, but there's no point in discuss that right now. Focusing on getting the basis of the game stable in an open beta first. Long story short, this game is basically way too difficult (to learn\\become good at) to make any actual money from it. Best case scenario it's "self-sufficient".
I don't think any of you ride your bike with training wheels. That's how I see a 'Strafe Helper'. I was taught how to strafe/pg climb by Shio, who never used cgaz. I think a 'basic' accel meter would be alright even though it still kind'ah gives the right angles away.